“Every day I wake up on the wrong side of capitalism,” Lewenza declares. “And every day I wake up knowing there are more people with me. Enough of us are waking up to fight back.”
“The evidence is just about bulletproof: When union membership thrives, so does the middle class. Over the past 18 month, studies by Harvard University, the non-partisan Center for American Progress (CAP), the union-backed Economic Policy Institute (EPI) in Washington, D.C., and the Pew Research Center, also in Washington, have shown an incontrovertible correlation between the rate of unionization and the percentage of the nation’s total wealth held by the middle class.“
iabilities as part of the deficit. The reality is that most teachers don’t use up all those sick days so they are not really liabilities. The cost of the gratuity is less than the cost of using the sick days (see below).
“The 200 days banked is merely the level needed to get the gratuity. Most teachers have much more than that. What most people fail to understand is that it is in the Board’s (and taxpayer’s) best interest to encourage teachers to bank as many as possible. For every day a teacher is away, the public needs to pay both the teacher who is off sick and a supply teacher. I have banked over 320 sick days in my career so far – the cost to the taxpayer if I had used those days instead of banking them? – $192,000.
I know at this point, logical, fiscal arguments don’t usually help, so let me make it more personal. This year I had a bout of pneumonia and was away for quite sometime. Would you, as a parent, really want me in the classroom/school infecting your child and possibly hundreds of others? If I’m not there, what would you have done for your child? Send them to the library? Gym? How would it sound if you were told, “No math class today. my teacher was off sick.”?”
by Wayne Scott Ng onhttp://www.societyforqualityeducation.org/index.php/blog/read/reality-bites/
You may think I’m being melodramatic, but I don’t think so. Our rights are being slowly chipped away at year after year while the majority of people remain blissfully unaware or apathetic at best and willfully supporting it in their own interests at worst.
You can not be seriously comparing police and firefighters to teachers. Let me see you show up at a car accident first on scene and deal with the carnage.
Hi,
I have bookmarked this and will be reading all of it. The comments I have read are excellent on both sides.
I will say up front that I do not support the teachers union. That is to say that I do not support teachers. I have volunteered my time at three elementary schools in the past 15 years. Teachers are people who differ greatly and can not be grouped the way the public sees them.
The union has too much power. It is that simple. And if we believe that the union represents teachers or democracy or our children I then we are all missing the point. The union represents the union plain and simple.
The union does not fight for democracy. It fights for their bottom line. Just because it works under the title of union does not mean it is not a business. The union is fighting to not loose the ability to negotiate in a way that it can profit. And it is using teachers, parents and children as pawns.
And please note…..the teachers fundamentally work for the people of Ontario. We pay the government, the government pays the boards, the boards pay the teachers.
Looks like I forgot the link above. Here is the report I am referring to.
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/Ontario%20Office/2012/03/ON%20Fiscal%20Reality.pdf
Thanks Erin. I was also going to come back to this and then given Jen’s post I thought I would just leave it. I’m not interested in having that sort of conversation here. I come hear to learn a different perspective and to be challenged on mine. I appreciate your comment to Jen and agree with you that responding to her type of posting lowers the conversation, and so I am choosing not to engage with her other than to point out that disagreeing with the unions messaging about this strike is not teacher bashing, and Jen’s comments to that effect show a lack of both critical thinking and the understanding that intelligent people can engage in a discussion without making it personal.
I respect that you are open to these conversations and also wanted to say that I hope you know I respect you and all that you do for your students. It is clear from your posts that you put your all into teaching and your students benefit from that commitment and passion in a myriade of ways.
I’d be interested in reading the report you mentioned (Are you referring to the Drummond Report – there wasn’t a link I could see ).
I know we disagree on this particular issue, but I hope we can agree that neither of us is choosing to be ill-informed. Like you I have read the legislation for Bill 115 as well as the affected elements of the Education Act, the Drummond Report and I have read news coverage from a variety of sources, blogs and PR for the unions and advocacy groups on both sides of this issue. I don’t think I am lacking an understanding of the issues – I just think we disagree on the substantive elements of the issues and on what role the teacher’s unions can and should play in the running of our education system and in our democracy.
I don’t think we will change each other’s minds here and so I’m going to just let this conversation drop. I am grateful that you are willing to discuss and engage, and I appreciate that it is done with respect for diverse views.
I’ve been meaning to get back here and comment on comments, sorry for the delay. I respect Karen very much, although I don’ t know her in person, she has been commenting on my blog for years and I know she is a kind and intelligent person. I doubt she has job envy and I think that is lowering the conversation. I do disagree with her and I don’t think she, like many people, do not understand all the issues. I also think many people rely on inaccurate information and government propaganda when backing up their opinions. This report is very interesting. It actually says our deficit is mostly from stimulus spending and bailing out industry like the auto industry. It also says we had a balanced budget in 2007. Teachers are willing to take the 2% cut which is reasonable, the rest isn’t. It is not fair to ask the public service to take on the deficit they did not create. It is ridiculous to create a fake situation to bring back the legislature early, pass an unconstitutional bill and then prorogue legislature. Why does on one hold the government to task for this? The report also says the deficit is not an emergency, in the short term it needs to be lowered to a low % of CPP in order to maintain our standing with Moody, Standard and Poor. Also, corporate taxes have been lowered in the past 2 years and the rich are under taxed.
Oh dear! Wilma, the the teacher in me can’t resist this teachable moment…Read my post. It is directly above yours. In it you will see the reason for the deficit is full day kindergarten. Don’t believe me? Educate yourself and read the Drummond report. Still think Karen’s posts are “intelligent?”I believe Karen may be writing as “Wilma.” Pathetic!
Karen, great posts. Very insightful and intelligent. The sides are very polarized and I don’t see you changing teachers opinions anytime soon. What I say is inflammatory but it is the truth. The teachers and their union wont learn until it all comes crumbling down. I actually look forward to this so we can do some corrections to the system and fix what is broken. Only then will they understand that a $14.5 billion deficit is no joke. Yes, please. keep asking for more.
Karen, it is obvious that you have job envy. Perhaps of your teacher relatives you mention. Canada boasts one of the best education systems in the world. You get what you pay for. The vast majority of Ontario Teachers are excellent at what they do. It is important work and yes, we, teachers are well compensated and so we should be. I make no apologies for being a teacher. I am proud of the work I do, the high quality of education and care I provide my students, for the hours of work I put in ( am often up well past midnight planning and marking just to balance my huge workload which you cannot imagine with the demands of family and daily life) of my extensive education and qualifications, of the fact that I received multiple acceptances into several Ontario teachers’ colleges (extremely competetive at the time), that I competed with hundreds of applicants to become a teacher and most if all of my ability to gracefully rise above ignorant comments such as yours and remain focused on thebenefit ofmy students while working under constant public scrutiny and an increasing culture of ignorance. The government at large is excellent at recruiting the naive to adopt a position of opinion. They have been succesful in their attempts to deter the attention away from the true issue for the deficit, which is the fact that we cannot afford full day kindergarten. The Drummond report was ignored and dismissed. It is popular and easy to put blame on teachers and focus negative energy on it. It has become “normal” in our society to displace one’s own financial challenges or issues on what is considered a desirable profession. I challenge you and others who are easily detered like you, to look at the true issues and to adopt an anthropolic perspective- seek the strange in the familiar. I Though it is currently popular to bash teachers, it is NOT acceptable. It is also not
acceptable, or intelligent, to devalue any profession. I wouldn’t dream of questioning benefits or salaries of other professions who contribute to society in such meaningful ways and you too do not have that right.
Why, in our society, do some people feel so entitled to belittle the teaching profession publicly? We do not do this to doctors or police officers or other professionals who are well compensated.
Karen, in one
Your arguments are common, misguided and can be dismissed easily. You have spent far too much energy on your defensive posts- so much job envy! If teaching is as easy and “overcompensated” as you seem to think, why don’t you become one?
Hmmm really? Maybe it is a board specific thing. But most employee benefit programs are at least cost shared with employers and employees
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/anatomy-of-an-ontario-teachers-paycheque/article6015968/
Quote: Benefits
Teachers have an extended health-care plan that is 100-per-cent funded by the employer and dental plan funded 94 per cent by the employer. They also have group life insurance coverage, with the first $35,000 of coverage paid by the board and any additional coverage paid by the teacher.
Teacher contribute to their penions which I imagine is substantial. But that is also matched by the government.
As for your other comments, I’m not going to get into teacher qualifications with you because I don’t this is the right place. I think people who love to teach will be attracted to teaching and that by setting out requirements for entry to the profession, and by requiring and supporting professional development within the system we will continue to maintain standards for teachers. As with all professions some teachers will continually strive to do their best, and update their skills. Other’s won’t. I think teachers should be fairly compensated, but not overcompensated, and I believe that it is fair for them to participate in the same kinds of belt tightening that other ministries, and the private sector have already experienced.
Karen
teachers benefits are not solely paid for by the taxpayer, they are paid paid by the teacher her/himself, it comes right out of their pay and it’s a large chunk.
If we genuinely care about education, then we will want to attract quality educators. Currently we create incentive to improve qualifications and expertise. By doing away with that, our government is actually pro active in hurting not helping education.
If you read between the lines, those who argue for bill 115 are trying to paint teachers as uneducated, generic, run of the mill government employees, cogs in the machine, not much different than a maintenance worker. Therefore a pay cut is justified, after all they are not valuable. But try this argument for size at parent teacher night, “hello I’m your sons teacher, I am not qualified, educated or dedicated, but then again that’s what your government wanted”
Karen, Did you look at my math? I don’t know how Levitt did his because he does not explain it at all, yet you believe his math over mine. And I used the highest (or close to) salary. I’m beginning to think that the only voice you will listen to are conservatives writing in conservative papers and magazines. For ME, this strike is about the right to collective bargaining and that is all. And the fact that I see many of our rights being chipped away at by legislation here and there. Wal-Mart refuses to bring factories up to fire safety standards in Bangladesh and hundeds there just died in a factory fire. Most corporations will do this if they can, it’s a slippery slope and we could end up back there if we don’t look out for ourselves – ALL of us, not just commodity workers.
Alos, banks are declaring record profits. Hmm. I don’t have time to research a number of companies and see what kind of a hit their workers have taken while they continue to make huge profits, I’m sure many aren’t, but banks are. This idea of growth is ridiculous. The higher ups get raises and bonuses while the middle men and women take hits so the share holders can get richer. How about sustainability instead. And yes, sustainability for the public sector, ALL of it, including MPPs, and their incredible wastage in spending.
I want to explain what my job is like (I’m mixing up different years here for the full spectrum).
After a few weeks in my class I realize that out of 26 kids, 15 are reading below grade 4 level. Two are at SK level, and then the rest in between. The principal tells me these kids are not identified so they don’t get any extra support. I have to figure out how to get them up to grade level all on my own. Maybe he can spare and EA for an hour a day. Research tells me that kids in grade 4 who can’t read either have a disability and/or need intensive intervention in order to show much improvement. Intensive as in hours of one on one instruction. I can’t do that, I have 26 students. I do my best. I do guided reading groups, I do individual conferences, I research how to instruct phonics (I’m not a primary teacher), I buy countless workbooks with my own money, even though I hate workbooks, I need a variety of independent work at different levels. I buy audio books from audible so the kids can hear books that aren’t really boring like the read a long books created for younger children. I buy phonics apps for my iPad (that I bought with inheritance money because we just get by on my salary and we are frugal) and I let my students use it in an effort to give them engaging phonics work while I’m doing guided reading. I do as many hands on activities as I can in Science and Social Studies, spending hours planning, preparing, and lots of money buying items I need for experiments etc. It helps, but the kids reading at SK level still think they are stupid and it breaks my heart. I am NEVER good enough at my job to help all the kids, and the system IS NO WHERE NEAR good enough. I’m a good teacher but I can never be good enough.
For the kids who don’t struggle, I want them to be engaged so I spend hours writing grant proposals for money to buy technology for my school so they can use it to create amazing projects to show their learning. I want them to be able to choose what they want to learn and I am forever engaged on a silent battle between the demands of the school board and what I think would be best for these particular children whom I do not think need to write yet another persuasive letter to the principal asking for more recess or their parents asking for an iPod or a dog. I know that if I could only do everything as inquiry based these kids would be fired up about school, I know because I see it when I sneak it in and I know many, many other teachers in Ontario who are doing it (go check out my Twitter list on educators).
For all the kids I help fundraise for trips. These fundraisers take many hours to plan, tally, count money, etc. After the fund raising I go on field trips that I have planned. Trips to Toronto that are 3 or 4 days long, days away from my family. I plan local trips into the bush and my husband and I spend hours planning them and going into the woods to set up orienteering courses and sign posts for animal habitats. I run a cross-country ski program for years, recruiting volunteers, creating groups, organizing rides, buses, etc. I start an outdoors club where we teach the students outdoor survival skills after school and go on hikes at lunch. I try to engage the community in our school and our clubs.
In the summer I take courses to improve my teaching. Five days at math camp this past summer. Online courses, face 2 face courses, conferences, that I pay for myself or apply for grant money for. I spend days in my classroom every summer. At every used book store I go to I buy more books for my classroom library. I buy furniture and blankets for it so kids can curl up and read.
I don’t know how many hours and dollars all this amounts to, and I’ve never been inclined to count until this discussion.
I am not the only teacher in Ontario who does all these things and more.
I am now retiring from the debating club.
Erin I guess this where the difference in perspective comes in.
Teachers make on average 80K a year (and yes I am sticking with that number until someone can show me the evidence that it’s not correct) for working 41 weeks. It’s reasonable to compare wages on an hourly basis but even if we do it your way80K is a good wage if you get 3 weeks holiday. It’s frankly excellent if you only work for 3/4s of the year.
They also get a pension to which they contribute yes, but which is *matched* by the provincial government to a maximum of 15% of salary and which provides defined benefits indexed to inflation (this is essentially unheard of in the private sector – teacher’s have one of, if not the best, most generous pension system int he country and should not be lightly dismissed.)
Source: http://www.otpp.com/wps/wcm/connect/otpp_en/Home/Member+Info/The+Basics/
I also understand that teachers work hard and spend a lot of their time outside 9-3 class time to the benefit of students. I guess then that teachers need to decide whether that is considered an acceptable part of their job and essential to a child’s education, in which case they should not be able withdraw those services in a work to rule situation. Alternatively we could classify them as volunteer in which case the $78/hr argument has real merit.
I get that the messaging to now shifting from the union so that the discussion is supposed to move away from pay to the idea that teachers are protecting democracy for us all in order to get the public onside.
But it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. If you want the right to bargain collectively and you want fairness between teachers then I don’t understand the argument against bargaining with the province in this instance, given that there is a need to address the province’s financial situation on a broad basis, which is what the government was trying to do. Hammond et al walked away from the bargaining table after 1 hour. *1 hour.* *ONE hour.* In February. Why were the Catholic unions able to settle with the government and the EFTO and OSS union not able to settle with either the government (who foots the bill for their services) or their boards which is what they say they now want the right to do. Did you not want to exercise this right before the strike date. I’m honestly asking because it makes no sense to me to turn to this argument now that you are in a strike position if that was the true intent of teachers and their union back in February.
Teachers (and their union) were not elected to protect our democracy. They are hired and paid by the taxpayer, to whom the *elected* provincial government is accountable, to teach the children, which they cannot do if they are withdrawing services and striking. Bill 115 passed through our elected representatives. How is this about democracy?
Here’s Hammond’s latest response to the situation and our democratically elected goverment. (Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-wont-nix-one-day-walkouts-as-teachers-threaten-longer-strike/article6018132/)
“I’m not concerned about what the minister has said in terms of two, three days. Quite frankly, we have the right to strike. If we wanted to strike two days, three days, five days, or continuously, we have that right under the Ontario Labour Relations Act,” said Sam Hammond, president of the Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario. “I’ve promised no one anything, quite frankly.”
Nice…….
The EFTO has issued bulletin said ETFO could fine members deemed to be “in non-support during a job action” up to $500 a day. “Members found to be in violation … shall be subject to a range of sanctions that may include but is not limited to, publication of name in a federation publication, suspension of the right to hold office in the federation and suspension of federation services except those required by law,” the bulletin warns. The union executive decides the punishment. (source: http://www.torontosun.com/2012/12/03/etfo-threatens-teachers-not-to-ignore-job-action)
From the EFTO’s FAQ on 115 (http://www.controlyourfuture.ca/frequently-asked-questions-about-bill-115-oecta-mou-and-local-bargaining/)
ETFO played an important role in helping to elect NDP candidate Catherine Fife in the September 6, 2012 by-election. Her election prevented the Liberals from achieving a majority government. Our efforts in the by-election demonstrated our ability to mobilize our members.
The minority government situation means a provincial election could be held as early as the spring when the next provincial budget is voted on or at any time the Liberals determine to make an issue in the Legislature a “vote of confidence.” ETFO will be focusing on assisting our locals prepare for the next election and engaging our members to communicate their opposition to the government’s actions.
I’m not sure I want the teachers and I am definitely sure I don’t want the EFTO in charge of my democracy.
Can I say something about the potential teacher strike? I can tell you, as an occasional teacher in Ontario, there is nothing I want less than a strike. No one in my position has anything to gain from this, and in fact the speculation of all of this has meant that I have barely worked at all, since teachers seem to be afraid to take even one sick day unless they’re falling down sick.
That being said, the more I learn about the issues, the more it makes sense that teachers should strike. I think it needs to be stressed that what’s at stake here is not sick days and pay freezes. It’s the government’s ability to remove the teachers’ ability to collective bargain. It’s like telling the teachers that their unions don’t matter. Teachers may strike, but only to send the message that it is still their right — at least, until it is unilaterally taken away by the government. The province is going after teachers first; it’s only a matter of time before everyone else working in public service will follow.
In a way, teachers are trying to stand up to the government on behalf of everyone who is unionized and working in public service. In my opinion. A strike, if it occurs, will last a heartbeat, because the government will order teachers back to work. At least teachers will have tried.
Please no sarcasm I would like to keep this conversation civil and well informed.
I don’t have much time right now and I would like to respond to everyone who adds something meaningful to the conversation.
We all know that statistics are manipulated to suit the writer and that politicians and union leaders lie all the time. So we are choosing to believe one or the other or maybe none of them.
I would like to address Messr Levitt’s math in the Financial Post article that Karen posted.
Even a teacher at the top of the scale does not make $78 per hour.
There are 52 weeks in a year. Subtract 11 for the summer, Christmas holiday and March break. That’s 41 weeks. Divide that by 40 hours in a work week (although most teachers do work more than 40 hours and work for some of the summer – yes some don’t but most do) you get $56.70 per hour. And that’s only for the top of the payscale which many are not at. I don’t know if we could even get that information without asking each Board individually to provide the numbers at each salary. Now I’m sure many of you think that’s too much also. I’m not going to get into pensions here, teachers pay into their pensions (I need to research how much employers do before I speak).
More later.
That is okay with me if my comment bothers you, with all due respect as well I needed to get it out because the posts here were bothering me, too. Those newspaper articles are very biased and inaccurate based on actual experiences as a teacher, a lot of the time. I make about $37.50/hour (on my gross pay, so before deductions) if I do it for 8 hour work days, 5 days/week. That’s my same hours as my office job of the past. I’m a fourth year teacher, category A4. I am a long-term occasional teacher (not permanent), so at holidays I have a pay of $0 as we are only paid for days in the classroom – very fair to the tax-payer, though we perform the same job as a permanent teacher, so not to be confused as someone working less. Its just one such stage in teaching. What’s hard for me is how the media lumps us together when like so many jobs we have stages of growth and pay increases with experience and courses (which are not subsidized, again just sharing to show that’s fair to taxpayers, we pay for our own upgrade courses). On “average” we are not making $78/hour, just to debunk that strange notion. Honestly, this entire experience has jus taught me a lot about bias in the media, and I will even read articles about other topics wirh a grain of salt… When I read those articles I often want to pull my hair out because they aren’t really writing about the true experience.
This current battle against the government is not about pay, and I don’t mean to sway it that way again, but its one thing to note. Fair salary, not over-inflated salary. A salary I’m fine having frozen, as we mostly all were. But not $78/hour. We also never receive overtime pay, so even someone making 90k (top grid, A4, 10 years plus experience) could not make $78/hour ever. (Of course, now I also need to not be biased — we are also all in different school boards, so it changes board to board too and I can only speak for York Region, however the top of the grid isn’t $162K + anywhere that I’ve heard of).
Anyway, just read articles with a grain of salt because when I read them as a teacher I’m often left scratching my head wondering where in the world they got their ideas from. Anyway, I should just walk away but I can’t help it, this is my first time experience such negativity about the job I love so much and I guess I’m having trouble handling it. I chose teaching as a young child with no notion of benefits, salary, etc… C’est la vie, will just try to keep on keeping on for my students.
Hi. I have been enjoying reading this thread, which a friend posted on facebook.
I am a secondary teacher at the top of the grid. I know I am well compensated for my job. No complaints about that.
However, I believe in past contract negotiations, the government gave the school boards a formula to determine how much money they would have to work with. Then the school boards negotiated with their unions to work out how the $$ would be utitlized. I could be off, but that is my, albeit simplified, understanding.
If the government needs to spend less, why would they not just give the boards a lesser amount, and have them work out how to spend it? Why do they have to dictate how the cuts will be made in each board?
One thing that bothers me is that the restrictions that are being imposed are not being done so equally across the province. Yes, on one hand, all teachers would now be working under the same number of sick days and “gratuity”. But on the other hand, some teachers would be giving up more than others.
Erin said that her board doesn’t have retirement gratuities, so that part doesn’t effect her at all. However, at one point her board likely had something like a retirement gratuity, which has now been removed through past negotiations. A give and take processs. ie. remove the gratuity so that this money can be used for some other purpose – maybe better dental/health benefits – who knows – one would have to look back at old contracts.
However, my board does have gratuities. So, rather than being given the chance to negotiate them away, they are just being stripped. Why should teachers at my board be expected to lose the potential $40000 or so at retirement, while teachers at other boards don’t lose whatever benefit they are now receiving in their contracts because they already gave up their gratuity. So, if they have a better dental plan or health insurance plan than me, for example, because they don’t have a retirement gratuity, they are not being asked to give that up. But I am being asked to give up my gratuity without being given a better dental/health plan (for example).
So teachers at our board lose more than teachers at Erin’s board. This is part of the reason that negotiations with boards have been difficult – especially ones that have gratuities.
I am curious to know how many of those commenting in support of the teachers are not teachers…thought so.
Erin/Kath,
Thanks for the very thoughtful debate. I’ve found it very enlightening.
Tom
Ms Key, with all due respect (and I mean that sincerely) it’s comments like yours that make me want to pull my hair out.
1) I have plenty of friends who work for various other government agencies/ministries whose salaries were frozen, whose pay grids were frozen, who were subject to hiring freezes meaning if someone left they had to pick up that person’s work, whose benefits were altered all post-2008. As stated above this was also the case in the private sector. In all cases those were just imposed, not negoitiated, because that is how the real world works for those who are not unionized.
Why would you think that teachers are “THE ONLY GROUP” who have to face these issues and why do you think you should be exempted from them?
And in what ways is what happens or has already happened to most of the workforce differ from what is happening to teachers at the moment?
Is what happened to almost everyone else in the workforce at that time also undemocratic or illegal, as you claim is the case for teachers?
Perhaps the government and the public are reacting unsympathetically to your union and profession because you (collectively) are withdrawing services and striking over what other people realize is a reasonable and necessary reaction to our financial situation. I don’t think it’s inappropriate, I’ve not seen evidence presented that it is illegal. I’d be happy to read something if you want to post it though.
2) Yes teacher’s are individuals – no one has argued that. And everyone acknowledges that you (collectively) work hard. But you (general you) belong to a union and insist on the right to collective bargaining, which by definition demands that all teachers be treated the same with respect to the issues we are speaking about in this discussion (ie compensation). You cannot on one hand argue that the taxpayers whould not refer to you in the collective sense, when on the other hand you demand all the benefits of being part of that collective (I am speaking specifically about the compensation and bargaining issues we are talking about).
3) Teachers do make “a lot of money”- see all the articles I have linked to above about the average salaries and compensation of teachers which are based on Ministry of Ed and EFTO’s own numbers. I’ve yet to see any evidence that this information is false. $80K a year with 10 weeks of holiday plus a gold plated pension is a lot of money. Why is it unfair to state the truth?
4) If you want to demonstrate to show your concern over bill 115 why not do it on a Saturday so that you can teach the kids and demonstrate to the parents that you are able to communicate your oposition in a way that doesn’t detract from the kids or hurt your credibility and professionalism?
Christine, I’d be happy to talk to you about but first I would like your opinions on these articles which compare teacher’s compensation to others:
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/10/02/why-excessive-teachers-wages-are-a-boondoggle-we-cant-afford/
This one is a quite detailed explanation of calculations that show EFTO teachers get paid an average of $78 an hour based upon information provided by the Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario as to the required minimum days worked per year, hours per day and average annual remuneration.
Quote: Extrapolating $78 dollars per hour to a 40-hour work amounts to a salary of $162,240 per annum. With the additional amount represented by the value of the 60% lifetime pension, it would be more than $200,000.
And this study from the OECD which found teachers get paid at *or above par* with others with similar years experience and education.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/teacher-pay-canada-near-the-top-of-the-oecd-class/article4541629/)/
Quote: Canadian teachers – and the data is the same for primary and second teachers – have a teacher compensation ratio of 1.05. Roughly translated, that means they get paid 5 per cent more than others with equivalent education.
I don’t know if that calculation includes their pension and 12 weeks of holiday time which are huge elements of a generous compensation package.
I’d love to read your stats that show that most professions with a 4 year degree and plus one year additional traing (ie teacher’s college which most of my teacher friends said was not very challenging, nor educational) make a compensation package worth 200K a year over their lifetime. Because with rare exceptions (and most of those exeptions are also in the public sector interestingly), that just doesn’t line up with the experience of my friends who have Bachelor’s, Masters and PhDs
It’s offensive to suggest I am misinformed just because I disagree with you. I have read widely on this issue and presented numerous links to sources like reputable newspapers, studies and government sources to back up my statements in this discussion. I’d be interested to see your evidence that I am wrong.
This is a really great blog post, thank you for writing it. I agree with you, Erin. The comments have been interesting, but also irk me. I need to just get this out…
1) I’m with YRDSB. We have a fantastic relationship between union leaders and school board. We WERE working on negotiations, we began in April (maybe even before, but the exact date eludes me, it was AT LEAST by April)… then things began to fall apart with the government. We were stuck, and our school boards were stuck because they didn’t have the budgets to even know how to discuss things with our union leaders. This issue has a lot behind it that is NOT shared or reported properly in the media, and unless you are in it, you do not know what it is like or what is going on.
2) We are human beings. Teachers will be great, good, okay, bad, terrible, etc. I do not want to be compared or considered to be doing or not doing anything based on 75, 999 other people who are members of my union (ETFO). I’m an individual, and parents need to stop saying “those teachers” like we are all a faceless, nameless group of people. We hear these words, and they hurt, and it’s ridiculous.
3) If we do not do everything we can to show we oppose this bill, including job action, the courts will not even listen to our case. This bill is undemocratic, inappropriate, and being handled terribly by the government and especially our Minister of Education. We oppose it, and we have to do all we can to show that. Otherwise, the lawyers say “Ah well, the teachers could have done x, y, z and they didn’t, so there is no case here”.
Sorry that it isn’t great, but honestly… this is a career, too, and our government is not supposed to be a dictatorship. We have a voice, and we are not teaching our kids anything if we don’t use it.
I am still doing A LOT for my students, every moment I have is dedicated to them. We have a great day in the classroom each day. We will have our holiday singalong in the weeks leading up to the holidays, it is awesome. I love my job so much, and my students are well cared for.
I can still have a voice, I can still pause certain activities, and if we need to take ONE DAY to demonstrate we are opposed to this bill… it will feel like nothing more than a PA Day to our kids. Honestly, they’ll survive.
Also — we agree, we agree to wage freezes, etc… however, why would we need to be THE ONLY GROUP being treated this way by the government?! Why do we need to “take one for the team”, exactly?! It’s pretty unfair, regardless of what you think about the situation — sure, we have a deficit to deal with, but why are WE being thrown “under the bus” for that?! Just something to think about. How would YOU feel if you were attacked this way, and then had to listen to people who are not on the inside be snide with you every where you turn just for standing up for what you believe in??
Also, I do not make 90k a year, and I wish it would stop being said that “teachers make so much money”. I make perfectly good money, but I am not a multi-millionaire. C’mon. Unfair. I am not even complaining about the money, that’s all fine, but I want to make sure it’s recognized… we do not “on average” make 90k… that doesn’t make sense. Most of my peers are not A4 and won’t be able to get there for awhile anyway because of this legislation.
Anyway, just some notes from the inside I guess. Let’s just keep in mind that human beings are involved here. I wish we’d all try to think before we speak.. or type.
OPP officers get 6 months severance pay at retirement. Teachers gave up “vacation pay in previous contracts in order to have more sick days. Now the government wants to unilaterally take this away. Maybe if teachers just called the sick day gratuity a severance, Joe public will not be so irate. Cops and firefighters max out at their top salary after only 3 or 4 years on the job. For teachers it takes 11 years and with Bill 115, they could stretch that out to 15 – 20 years with impunity. The government knows they can dupe the public into thinking it’s all about salary (even opposition leader Hudak went on tv to say it was only about salary), but anyone who’s read what was in Bill 155 knows that it gives the government the right to impose contracts that cannot be “questioned” AT ALL (even if it violates Ontario Labour Laws, the Human Rights Bill). God help us all, because a dangerous precedence will be established and you’ll all be next!
@karen… “very, very generously compensated”???? Your responses indicate you are an intelligent and well read person. But sadly, it sounds as if, in spite of this, you may also be one of the many misinformed. Very,very generously compensated compared to a Walmart cashier, sure! But compared to other professionals with a similar amount of schooling? not so much….
The unions will say that Bill 115 is illegal but this is yet to be determined and the government would argue the opposite. There is grandstanding and over dramatics at work here at its finest. Here is the position of the government and likely many Ontarians:
Ontario’s Minister of Education, Laurel Broten, said the province would “vigorously” defend against the challenge that Bill 115 is unconstitutional.
“Our position in court will be that [Bill 115] is constitutional, that we have respected the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, including the right to a process of collective bargaining, and that, in any event, under the Charter this measure is both reasonable and justified in all the circumstances.”
Ontario is struggling with a $14.8-billion deficit, and the government’s position is that Bill 115 avoided costs associated teacher pay raises and bankable sick days that taxpayers couldn’t afford.
Erin, I have been thinking along the same lines all morning as I read the string of comments on my mobile.
The point here is not the specifics of any one contract, but the legislation itself. There is a clear trend in both the federal and some provincial governments to try to pass legislation that severely limits the ability of unions to negotiate on behalf of their members.
Any way you slice it, whatever the specifics of any one contract, this legislation is illegal, as it was in BC as well.
It just goes to show you, though, how deep the hurt goes when it comes to job action in certain professions. And how well the government has fought the battle of public opinion – much better than teachers’ associations have.
Why does it have to be job action? What does the one day strike or work-to-rule really accomplish? Yes, legal action is the slow road,
Current contracts expired August 31st…. in what other facet of business do you wait for the contract to expire before negotiating the new terms? In the non-collective-bargaining world, when a contract expires, the relationship expires. This is what makes unions so despicable to so many… they wait until there is a sense of urgency, when they can make threats, to work on the new agreements. Strikes are stupid in the public sector. In the absence of a collective agreement, any worker in Ontario is still covered under the Employment Standards Act, which is pretty clear about working conditions, etc. Unions are no longer needed to protect workers from deplorable conditions; the worker can make a claim to the Ministry of Labour if they have been mistreated. No one going out on strike in the public sector is doing so to save themselves from their working conditions. In this case, teachers are still getting paid, still receiving their benefits and contributions to their pension plans, still getting their prep time, their PA days, their vacations. So you’re striking for…. ? It’s self-preservation of the unions themselves, who have lost their usefulness in modern Canadian society. I’m insulted when a union member spouts the rhetoric about the conditions of the 1930’s as if it has any relevance today. 1930’s union members accomplished great things that changed policies and truly enhanced the middle class. They were heroes. New millennium union members? Not so much. Whiny, entitled, always asking for more. That’s how many people see them.
How many school boards are actively trying to reach agreements with their members by the December 31st deadline? If you’re all agreeing to the suggested wage freezes, shouldn’t it be a fairly quick process? Couldn’t individual boards make a concession about the sick days item (phase it in, keep it but make a sacrifice elsewhere, etc.)? The union seems otherwise occupied holding news conferences and pouting about Bill 115. If I were a teacher, I’d be telling my union leaders: Work it out. Build a relationship with the government that is mutually respectful. Stop acting like thugs and start acting like the professionals you represent. And for goodness sake, hire a better PR person.
No one has addressed the fact that Bill 115 is illegal. Not one. That was my main point. It’s an illegal bill and that is the main reason I, personally, agree with strike action.
If you’ve read my posts in the past you will know I have many problems with the public system, and I still stick it out trying to change it in my own small way. Systems are almost impossible to change and that is frustrating.
That is all.
Unfortunately Erin, I think the majority of the population agrees with Karen and Jen. Most teachers just can’t see the forest for the trees. In 2008 wages were completely frozen in my corporation. No questions asked. In 2012 our benefit plan changed. We’ve all had to tighten our belts and its about time that teachers did as well.
Karen,
I couldn’t agree with you more. Teachers are shooting themselves in the foot and have little support from a public that used to be behind them. The arguments are hollow and trivial considering the state of the economy and the sacrifices being made in the private sector. I have seriously considered private school options for my children as what they are getting at school these days is nothing more than the minimum and they are suffering for it. I used to feel proud of our public schools.
What I see are union heads and teachers completely out of touch with what is going on in this country and the rest of the world. There have been layoffs, cutbacks, and closures everywhere and someone needs to take hold of the public sector and get them in line with the times. The way teachers and the unions are behaving is self-centred and singularly focused. I think the public is getting pretty sick of the “hard done by” message when things are very tough in the private sector.
I keep hearing about how teachers really have little time off in the summer, so busy planning or upgrading skills. What?? I know dozens of teachers and not a single one of them did anything but vacation all summer. Some spent the summer relaxing at the cottage, others traveling abroad, still others reconnecting with their kids at home. I am not saying teachers don’t deserve this. It is part of the deal. But don’t try and pretend it isn’t a vacation.
I come from a long line of teachers (including Kath and Erin above!) and I have always been proud of the work they do and the commitment they have made. Yes, teaching is hard and it is extremely important but it becomes less so as teachers pull back on their commitment to the students. Isn’t this the opposite message they should be trying to portray? It makes it a lot harder to be sympathetic when they are doing even less work and still demanding more.
OK. This is it, I promise. Read this because she articulated everything better than I did:
Are Those Darn Teachers Still Complaining About Their Salaries?
An opinion piece, by Karen Nancarrow, Ontario Certified Teacher
I’ve just read one too many teacher bashing posts on Facebook today.
As a teacher, I will of course, provide a slanted opinion, but here you are. Disagree with me if you’d like, but not until you read this entire article, start to finish.
I love my job. Period. I would do it for less money, fewer sick days, and less time off. I would do it if I had to be tested yearly by the government to show that I know my stuff, and even if extra-curriculars were forced on me. I would still do it. I love it.
I went into teaching because I love kids. Yes, there are many people who think we go into this profession for the money, but please consider this. A starting teacher’s salary in our school board is $39 000. And this is after an average of 5-7 years to get a contract. In order to move up on the pay grid, teachers must have years of experience (so our salary goes up a little every year up to a maximum of 10 years) and we must also take extra courses in order to be paid the maximum amount. So in order to reach the top of the pay scale, a teacher must have had a contract for 10 years and have taken several extra university credits (paid out of their own pockets AFTER two university degrees).
So given that it might take 10-15 years to make it to the top of the pay scale (which is still a modest amount), many people’s assertion that teachers are in this for the money really have no justification for their position. When you ask teachers to look at “how good we have it”, please realize that when we go into teaching, the reasons are NEVER about the money! If I wanted to get rich, I definitely would not have chosen teaching as a career.
Pensions: Yes, we have a good one. Because we PAY into it!! Every maternity leave that I’ve taken (3 in total), I have paid back my pension and paid $8000 plus each time to keep it updated. Pulled it out of an RRSP.
So putting the money argument aside for a moment, this fight with the government actually has NOTHING to do with money. The bottom line for most teachers is that we have the RIGHT to negotiate with our employer. In fact, when this whole thing first got started, most teachers I know said “pay freeze for two years – yup, times are tough – we get it”. But it was only after more details evolved that we realized that the government wants to take away WAY more than two years of a pay increase.
Some say that we should be negotiating with our employers.
POINT OF CLARIFICATION here – the government is NOT our employer!! The school boards are. Imagine a third party coming in, going over your employer, who you have a good working relationship with, and telling you and them what you will be paid, how many sick days you will get, what days you will take off without pay, and that EVERYTHING you have negotiated with your employer in the last 20 years has now just been taken away in a heartbeat. No discussion. You have no say and your employer has NO say. Not even 5 minutes of discussion were we given – thanks so much!
Wouldn’t you fight to at least have the discussion with your employer? Even if you ended up with the same thing the government wanted to impose, would you not fight to have the ability to try?
Here are the two biggest concerns that I have:
Yes people not in unions dislike unions. But unions are the backbone of a lot of our working class people – whether they are in one or not. If unions fall, we should ALL be very afraid! What the government seems to be attempting to do is to get rid of unions. This is not about an argument with teachers. This is about the government exerting unjustified power to wave their magic wand and do whatever the heck they want and this is NOT OK!! Whether you are in a union or not, whether you support unions or not, remember that they are the ones who have fought for statutory holidays, minimum wage, overtime and good working conditions. Whatever is negotiated, ALL workers benefit! Get rid of the unions – you’ll also be getting rid of the middle class. Less people have less money to spend = more people out of jobs. Period.
2. This fight is about protecting our democratic right to free collective bargaining with our employers. If Bill 115 is allowed to stand (which I doubt, because one very similar to it was just reversed in BC because it was considered unconstitutional and unlawful by the courts), then this allows governments free reign and places themselves ABOVE the Human Rights Act and ABOVE the Employment Standards Act!! We should ALL be very scared of this! They are putting themselves ABOVE the law.
That’s it. Top two concerns for sure. Not about money, sick days, pension or benefits.
The government could have easily said to the school boards (OUR EMPLOYERS) that they had a certain amount of money and then teachers would have (just like we do every 2-4 years) negotiated our contracts with our employers. But they didn’t.
Because of their excessive spending over the last 8 years, the Liberals panicked when it came time for the bi-election a few months ago. In order to get the Conservative vote, they acted hard-nosed to get a majority. How’d that work for you McGuinty?
I get it. You’re upset. When teacher’s contracts are splayed out in the papers for everyone to see every few years, people get pissed off at our “privilege” and our sick days, and our summers off. We all have that one teacher who was mean to us (or 2 or 3) and it’s time we give all teachers heck because of the very few bad apples.
AND on top of that, what we have always gets compared to what everyone else has.
Teachers work hard. No one is saying that you don’t.
Teachers deserve every penny they get. No one is saying that you don’t.
Teachers need sick days because we are around sick kids who wipe their boogers on us every day. And get lice, Fifths disease and pink eye. The flu, barf on our shoes, and sneezing in our face. Oh yes. Fun times.
Teachers get the summers off. Yup. And we don’t get paid either. We get paid for TEN months.
Teachers negotiated banking sick days. This actually ended up being better for the government than paying us vacation pay, so we actually gave in and took the banked sick days over having vacation pay every year. Banking sick days means that we have a bit of a short term disability plan if we get really sick. It means that at the end if we haven’t used all of our days, we get a small retirement gratuity, which is then taxed and half taken away. This actually SAVES the government money in the long run – cheaper than the supply teachers they would have had to pay had we taken all of those days. (Let’s not mention that Dalton is getting paid right now for doing NOTHING (excuse me, I mean organizing the Liberal Leadership convention), and when he retires in a month will get a retirement gratuity of $315,000), but who notices that?
We get that we are well taken care of. But we help you RAISE your children. And for some, we provide a safe place, food for breakfast, a hug a day, love and support when they get that NO WHERE ELSE.
And we do a ton of extra-curriculars. The public loves us when we do them and they get outraged when we don’t. They are ALL VOLUNTEER!! And we love doing them, but NO ONE has the right – not our employer, not the government, and not the public – to pressure us or to chastise us when we choose not to VOLUNTEER!
I had a student tell me yesterday that I have changed his life. Not because I do an after school activity with him, but because I listen to him, care for him, spend time with him and value him.
Yes, we’ve all had a crappy teacher or two. But please everyone… don’t make it about that. Teachers deserve your respect. You love us all year until it’s time to negotiate with our employers which we have every right to do.
Parents – you’re pissed off? Good. Because now you’re paying attention! So how will you expend that frustration? Posting more Facebook posts about how horrible and greedy teachers are? I hope not.
Do better than that. Stand with us.
We are fighting for your children. For our own children.
We are fighting for public education.
We are fighting for democracy.
And if we get taken down, I’d watch your back, because you might be next….
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I do agree that there has to be some give and as far as I’m concerned (and many other teachers and the union – 2% salary freeze would be acceptable).
As for the grid movement – I’m not sure about that but I do know that money given to teachers in their first weeks of pay was taken back after the legislation was finalized. The government must have known it couldn’t finalize it fast enough to start on Sept. 1.
The grid brings me to this point – yes $93,000ish is the max for a Teacher at level A4 but a teacher at A1 with the same # of years teaching is paid between $47,000-$50,000. All teachers are not at A4. In order to be at A4 you have to have an equivalent of a Masters degree (at least the same # of university courses). So I don’t know how you are comparing to the private sector, but, however it is, look at people with Masters not simply an undergraduate degree.
Thanks for the article Erin. It lines up with other things I have read and I think it is a good summary, although I am still not clear on exactly what the key issue is for ECTO.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I don’t see teachers or the unions as being in the right here. Yes it’s not fun to take wage or benefit reductions, nor is it fun to have them imposed. Most of the rest of the workforce went through something similar 4 years ago. Walking away from the bargaining table after an hour because the union didn’t like the framework or who they were bargaining with, choosing to bargain with local boards and then not sitting down until the government’s deadline was looming or passed is not professional in my books, nor does it speak to acting in the best interests of kids.
I wanted to clarify my early point about the September 1st deadline and contracts. Do teachers not move on the grid as of that date? I can’t find the article which calculated that cost for the province should that happen (and my understanding is that would not be “repealed” like col increases and raises as you outlined above). I did find this one article which says that it would have cost the Hamilton school boards (public and catholic combined) 3.25 million, which would be compounded the following year with more grid movements. If we multiply that by 40, we are looking at 130 million dollars just for those increases alone for this year. The union is actively fighting the province’s position that grid movement must be frozen. http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2012/08/21/hamilton-teachers.html
On the specifics:
I think 5% of total teaching time for sick days and not being able to bank them is reasonable. And yes I agree that teachers are exposed to illnesses on a regular basis. So are nurses, child care providers, support staff that work with seniors or children on a regular basis and most people who are in close contact with the general public.
I don’t have specifics on your benefits plan. My sister and BIL who work for the Catholic school boards (one in elementary one in high school) have benefit programs very similar to the one our family has. We have slightly higher supplemental care benefits, but lower drug benefits. For our family it is a wash. Your benefits 10+ years ago may have been more generous than the typical benefits offered now.
I was looking for specifics on the average salary for elementary teachers and came across this article- which while I agree is inflamatory in some ways, does suggest that the average elementary teacher’s salary is actually higher than the OSSTF averages, based on his calculations. http://business.financialpost.com/2012/10/02/why-excessive-teachers-wages-are-a-boondoggle-we-cant-afford/
I know that most of the teachers at my sister’s school have more than 10+ years of experience which puts them at or near the top of the grid, which is 92K so I can see why averages work out to somewhere around 80K but am open to evidence to the contrary. I find it very odd that information isn’t readily available. McGinty specifically said that average teacher salary for elementary school teachers would be 90K if there wasn’t something put in place for Sept 1. I can’t find anything to the contrary. I don’t believe that ECTO and OSSTF salaries are substantially different with respect to this discussion – we are still talking broad averages.
This article from 2008 said the average elementary teacher’s salary+benefits THEN was 80K
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=87a4c1b1-0b71-4271-9392-7eae48f18210 (stats based on Min of Ed figures at the time)
(note the union tactics and talking points were the same then as they are now which speaks volumes I think to the PR issue unions have).
I’m not suggesting we model our education system on the one in the US – I attended highschool in florida and it was brutal. But I also don’t think that the government’s suggested imposed constraints move us to that level at all. Nor do I think education can be run purely on an economic or business model. But it is naive to think that education can or should be completely isolated from economics. Teacher’s should get salaries roughly inline with their private sector counterparts. (and they are out of whack – see OECD and the FP article above). Best business practices in terms of running the financial side of education (procuring supplies, accounting practises etc) should apply.
I think we may be talking in circles here. I don’t know the solution. I wish I did.
What job action can teachers take that won’t affect the kids at all? I can’t think of anything and I feel I need to stand up to their illegal legislation without waiting 5 years for it to go through the courts (which will cost everyone a lot of money). In BC it took five years to get to the Supreme Court which decided the legislation was illegal. What a waste of money, why wouldn’t the Ontario government learn from that situation?
Here is a pretty balance article explaining the whole situation. http://www.ottawacitizen.com/touch/story.html?id=7662894
Karen, I forgot one thing about the manufactured crisis in the summer – there were two bi-elections at stake and the Libs desperately wanted to win them as they would have a de facto majority government. Didn’t work though.
If you read Kath and my comments about the benefits, they aren’t cushy – our private sector benefits were much better.
As for average pay, ETFO member (elementary teachers) get paid less than OSSTF (secondary teachers) and those numbers, if they are right (I still don’t see how it can be the average when $80,000 is about the top of the pay grid), those averages are not accurate for elementary teachers, who are the ones striking now.
You can go to ETFOs website and see the pay grids for every board. I don’t know how you would figure averages without knowing where all teachers fall on the grid now.
I personally think that education is worth paying for. I wouldn’t model our system after the US, that’s for sure.
While I agree that unions had their place in creating the middle class, I disagree with so many of their tactics today (stalling negotiations until there is a strike mandate looming, pressuring members to comply with their tactics, FINING members for not going along with their tactics). Teachers have no choice but to strike? That is, quite frankly, BS. Teachers could do an awful lot in the court of public opinion if they just stood up to the union leadership and said, “you get paid the big bucks, find another way to fight this that doesn’t affect the kids.” Instead they gave them 92% support in their twisted, misdirected mandate.
At report card time, two of my kids came home with robust, comment filled report cards and the third came home with two comments on each page (canned comments that also showed up on one of the other kids’ reports). I have lost all respect for that teacher and I told her directly how devastated my child was to have been so disregarded in this important document (he truly was).
I have always supported teachers. To all the people who “complain” about the cushy jobs teachers have, I usually reply that those people should have been teachers. My family is full of teachers and we have had many debates over the years about teacher issues (through Bob Rae and Mike Harris years) as they relate to the general employment landscape. They all admit that life has been good under the McGuinty government. Even now, the gains in the last decade far outweigh anything that is now being imposed.
Whatever your fight is, whatever the issues are, you are not hurting McGuinty or Brotten by taking away things from the kids. You are hurting my children. You are hurting yourselves.
I need to sit and read all of these comments as just from skimming – I’m learning so much on both sides. Admittedly, I should be way more educated on all these issues but I’m not. I will say just because it popped out at me, while I was skimming. You’ll find in most public companies, you have to use time off for appointments and for when your kid is sick. You can’t use sick days for those as you’re not sick. And unless you have an awesome boss like mine, you can’t just pop out for an hour to take your kid to the doctor either. I have nothing but the greatest respect for teachers and I think the summers off are needed for mental health (although I’m learning that the amount of time you’re actually off in the summer isn’t that much between upgrading courses and starting to lesson plan). I’m not happy with the way it’s all going down is all. The students and parents shouldn’t be the ones made to suffer. Thanks for the enlightened debate ladies, I’ll be back to read deeper!
Sooooo democracy…that is what it is all about??? It is funny I read somewhere that children here had a right to education….is that right for them to thrive superceded by the teachers rights….
On the fly and will come back but the Globe and Mail isn’t the only source for the 80K salary. It’s based on the OSSTF figures and the Min of Ed figures (and 80K is understating it – it’s actually closer to 85K and those are figures from last year or the year before so it is conceivable higher than that and McGinty said the average was 90K. )
Source: http://www.nucleuslearning.com/node/3158. OSSTF contract links off that.
Hammond’s the one framing this on compensation saying he won’t negotiate reductions to the teacher’s collective agreements.
He does not accept the OECTA deal and states in his press releases that taking that kind of money out of the education system demoralizes teachers. What other money, besides teacher compensation and which is under the ECTO jurisdiction for negotiation, is being taken out of the education system? I can’t find his specifics on this. If you have them I would love to read them.
And yes I do think that 85-90K average salary for a teacher with 8-10 years experience is excessive given the rest of the compensation package which includes 10 or more weeks off, 20 fully paid sick days, the option to retire after 30 years on full pension, incredible job security, guaranteed raises, generous benefits packages. The teachers have had a sweet ride the last few years and as soon as the government says that they have to do their part which amounts to 3 unpaid days or the equivalent of $120 a month, they threaten strikes while saying it is all about the kids. It’s infuriating and I don’t have kids in the system. And my friends who do and who span socio economic and political groups, are absolutely furious with the teachers unions. My point is that teachers are shooting themselves in the foot. The optics are not good. The union’s messaging frankly sucks (excuse the inelegant language) and honestly it comes across as whining. I don’t know a single non-teaching parent who truly believes the union’s rhetoric that this is about protecting students, or the education system. The union’s primary goal is to negotiate for the teachers’ best interest, and as we see from the strike calls teachers’ and students best interests are not one and the same.
I’ll come back… 😛
I don’t know why workload is coming up. The unions are not focussed on it and I did not mention it in my original post. It is probably because, as I said above, there is a large contingent of folks out there who think that teachers are lazy.
We do not get to use our sick days for our children’s appointments either, and I could have when I worked in the private world.
I’m not sure comparing private and public is really useful though.
Anyway, life goes on. Right now it’s only a one day strike which is not going to be stopped by the Ministry (likely because it would strengthen the unions court case).
Again, I don’t know the specifics of the situation in Ontario, but it’s funny how the “teachers here get the highest salaries” mantra is repeated in all jurisdictions. I work for a major urban board in Alberta, and I recently heard on the radio that teachers in my board are the highest paid in the entire country. As I’ve never done the comparison, I can’t comment on the truth of it, however teachers’ collective agreements are easily accessible to any member of the public so I would imagine if you cared to, you could sit down and compare all the grids to see who is paid the most.
As a teacher, I share many of your frustrations, Erin. Here in my board we in fact have to cover the cost of our own substitutes in certain circumstances. So for instance, when I have to take my daughter to an appointment with her psychiatrist (pretty important for any parent, wouldn’t you agree?) I have to cover the cost of the substitute, which is very nearly 100% of my pay for the missed time. Also – I can’t just scoot out for an hour to take her to the appointment – the minimum amount of time I can book off is a half-day (this makes sense in some cases – it could be disruptive to the students otherwise).
Like you, I worked for years in the private sector before returning to my career as a teacher. I put in over a decade in progressively senior call centre management positions at one of Canada’s biggest wireless telecom companies, so I know what working hard looks like in the private sector, too. Did I work hard and put in a ton of overtime in both jobs? Absolutely. I also agree with you on the benefits – despite the general public opinion, my benefits as a teacher are not the plum package everyone seems to think they are. I had better extended health benefits in the private sector, and the maternity leave benefits were also considerably more generous (with a lovely salary top-up!) I also always had the option to negotiate my own salary before, and to do it annually, whereas now I have to rely on a union to do it for me every four to five years. It’s a whole different ball of wax.
I will say this, though. We teachers are often our own worst enemies in the court of public opinion. No matter how brutally hard and long we work at certain times of the year (report cards come to mind), I just personally feel that it’s unreasonable to play the workload card as if it trumped everything else and expect people to feel sympathy when we get so much time off. It’s just never going to happen that people with two, three or four weeks’ vacation are going to feel sorry for teachers and their heavy workload.
When advocating publicly for our labour rights, and fighting the PR battle, we need to use different and better ammunition. We do so many wonderful things for children and youth, our education system is hailed as one of the best in the world and we make such a positive contribution to the overall well-being of society – we need to leverage our service and our vocation instead of the tired old workload card.
A few more points. I do think it is reasonable to bring up MPPs retirement gratuities – they all get them when they are asking others to give up theirs (MPPs didn’t save up sick days for them either). It is also reasonable to look at other wastage in spending. Like having four school boards. Like the ORNGE debacle and the power plant waste.
Also, as for sick days, teachers have to use them for medical appointments. Where I live we have to travel between 2 and 6 hours to see specialists. That could mean several sick days are required Teachers are also exposed to a lot more sickness than the average professional. Fifths disease goes around schools regularly and can cause miscarriages in early pregnancy. Should a pregnant teacher go on disability for that? When I worked in the financial industry I had better maternity (way better) benefits than I received as a teacher. I’d be curious to do a comparison some time. I think the biggest issue is the sick days – but I could be wrong and I only speak for myself.
Maybe some aspects of government should be run like a business but I do not believe education can be run like a business and be good for the kids. I like to look to Finland where well run education exists.
Kath,
I am also a cynic about Human Nature and have been since my university days when I had my big “Crisis of Faith” while writing political theory and philosophy papers. There are many wonderful people in this world as we know but alas, they don’t seem to be the ones leading the world.
Karen,
All contracts begin on the date they were supposed to have begun. So if there is a raise in the new contract that is signed in January but was supposed to start September 1, then employees get the raise backdated to September 1. If wages are frozen but employees were given the raise starting September 1, the money is taken back. Which did happen this year. The legislation did not go through fast enough so teachers got their raises as laid out in the expired contracts (which hold until a new one is signed). All monies paid out were taken off subsequent paycheques once the legislation was final. So it was manufactured. They knew the legislation wouldn’t go through in time and they knew it didn’t matter since the new contracts are back dated anyway.
Also, this Bill 115 violates Ontario’s Labour Laws and is being challenged in court.
Karen, you keep coming back to teacher compensation – do you think that is unreasonable and should be reduced? I don’t believe that the average salary is $80,000 even though a Globe and Mail article says so because not all Boards max out at $90,000 and teachers have a two way grid to get to the top. It takes at least 10 years and many, many courses (at the teachers expense) to get to the highest salaries.
As for work outside of hours, I don’t think teachers think they are the only ones who do it at all. I personally think though, that family time should be family time, for every one – all workers at all leves. Why have we created a culture where we have to work around the clock to be considered “professional”? I do think teachers are defensive and bring that up because many, many people think teaching is a simple, easy job and that teachers are lazy.
Would the union try to maintain some gains during negotiations? Of course, that’s what negotiating is about. The end result is often meeting in the middle.
If I had been a public service worker during Ray Days I would gladly have taken extra days off without pay to help, and I would do so now. I just don’t want my rights legislated away.
It was not my intent to argue the details of the contracts or the economy and I shouldn’t have allowed myself to get pulled into that.
I do think the other issues are relevant (omnibus bills) because in my mind it all erodes my democratic rights. I recently read a really interesting article (by a former conservative pundit and PC Pollster Allan Gregg) about how the Conservatives are creating a country that resembles Orwell’s 1984 – here it is http://www.stnicholascenter.org/media/assets/neighborhood-baskets.pdf All of this disturbs me a lot.
There’s no doubt the federal government is trying to break the power of unions – just look at what has happened in recent years with Air Canada’s labour relations alone! I’m sure many provincial governments have watched their tactics with envy.
I don’t live in Ontario so I can’t comment on the specifics, but I do agree with you in principle, Erin. The existence of unions protects the middle class. Unfortunately, as I age I become more and more of a cynic when it comes to human nature and the kinds of people drawn to leadership and power brokering positions (read: politicians and union leaders). Nobody’s innocent – except of course the students.
I think that while the discussions about the MPPs compensation packages may be an interesting side discussion, it’s a red herring here. EFTO represents 76,000 teachers. McGinty’s retirement bonus wouldn’t cover sick day gratuities for 40 of them. I get that on a personal level it’s annoying, but its not the point of the discussion.
I am also concerned about things like the federal government’s omnibus budgets and other issues as well as the state of our democracy, but I am not sure how that ties into this discussion. I think we need to separate out some issues here- the business/economic issue and the legislative ones.
The thing is that I don’t think it is unreasonable for the provincial goverment (the employer) to look at the $15 Billion dollar deficit and declare it can’t be business as usual for the employees. It’s no different than what happens in the business world, when head office (aka provincial government) often dictates the salary budgets across the board regardless of how the individual departments (school boards) are doing. Democracy doesn’t come into play in this – it’s a business decision, within the public realm yes, but still fundamentally a business decision.
Now having to legislate the framework for bill 115 is part of our democracy, but we don’t as citizens get a chance to approve element of every bill our government introduces. That isn’t how our democracy works and it would be completely unworkable if it were structured that way. We can attempt to influence those bills but it’s unworkable for every group or person to have the power to hold up the government and public service when they disagree with the bills, in the way that the teacher’s unions are currently. You may think my comment about unions is elitist (I disagree although I wish I could express myself better without the word commodity) but I can think of only one other profession (in the original traditional sense of the word) which retains the right to collective bargaining, and that would be nurses (who do not have the right to strike if they are employed by hospitals.)
Whether or not you believe the deficit came from the 2008 crash or not, it’s here and we need to deal with it. (And yes I think declining tax revenues were a big part of the issue for Ontario which is so dependent on the US economy). And while no teachers weren’t the cause, they are public servants, paid by the taxpayer and their salaries and compensation packages do represent a significant line item in the provincial budget.
I don’t buy the “manufacturing a crisis” situation. On September 1 the current contracts were set to expire and there would have been an automatic increase of 5.5% in compensation for teachers. Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/08/09/toronto-teachers-broten.html
I don’t believe that the teachers union would have been willing to forego that had negotiations been allowed to start. Do you? It may very well have been negotiated in good faith in the past. But that’s a HUGE increase in this fiscal environment, moving the average teacher’s salary close to $90,000 – one of the highest in the world. Teachers in Ontario receive a premium level of pay for their education compared to other Canadians with similar levels of education. (Source http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/teacher-pay-canada-near-the-top-of-the-oecd-class/article4541629/)
You know my husband comes home and reads industry journals, he’s on call at night, he travels for work and is away from our family at times. I remember spending hours working “after hours” on work projects, reading industry journals etc. It’s an expectation for most workers. I appreciate that teachers do it. But my sense is that they seem to think they are the only ones who do, or that their career choice is more onerous than other careers. And I keep coming back to the fact that they are also extremely well compensated, and have incredibly generous vacation and pension packages to boot.
So coming back to my main point, I think that while there are some legitimate concerns about elements of the Bill 115, I think that the teacher’s unions and unfortunately by extention the teachers themselves have played a huge role in creating this situation. They have, in effect, proven the government’s forethought in including those elements in this legislation. I also don’t think the public is easily lead by the government in demonizing teachers. I think fundamentally the teachers unions have misread public sympathy for their arguments in the current economic climate and with the current package of salaries, benefits and job requirements teachers enjoy.
Hi Karen thans for commenting.
First, I’d like to say this is how I feel about it, for me it is about democracy and precedent setting legislation. I take Bill 115, along with other actions like omnibus bills, etc., as an erosion of my democratic rights. My board doesn’t have the retirement gratuity so I’m not losing anything there and a salary freeze for a few years in not a big concern, it seems reasonable and I would agree to it. (I sure am kicking myself for spending thousands of dollars on school books and supplies though – I have about 300 books in my classroom library that I purchased myself. I have about 100 teacher guides. I have furniture that I purchased myself so there are cozy places to read. Markers, paper, pencils, software, etc. I let my class use my iPad and my laptop. I apply for grants and enter contests to get more money or technology for my students – all done on my own time. I spend 80% of my online time on tasks related to teaching, e-learning, collaborating, researching, applying for grants etc.).
The government didn’t even show up at the table for the first meetings, they sent bankruptcy lawyers instead. They imposed the deal leaving no room for bargaining at all. ETFO walked away because it was not a bargaining table with the Boards and the ground rules that govern collective bargaining. I think that does show professionalism, they were willing to bargain following the rules of the Labour Relations Act and the government was acting outside of that. Then the government proceeded to manufacture a crisis in order to call the legislature back early. Read this article about that http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1237102–walkom-what-s-behind-mcguinty-s-threat-to-legislate-teachers-back-to-work the government has been working very hard to discredit teachers before anyone had a chance to bargain at all. It seems to have worked.
Teachers have not been asked at all, that is not true, they have been told. The union is very willing to negotiate at the board level. If you want to continue this to other public sector workers one might question Dalton McGuinty’s $312,000 retirement gratuity. Laurel Brotten’s would be up there too. Add up all those gratuities and the 150% pension they get after 3 terms and I question their commitment to lowering the deficit.
I disagree that unions only represent commodity workers and that being unionized takes away from professionalism, that seems elitist to me. Unions are a collective voice, yes sometimes for people who don’t have one. As for safety, though schools are pretty safe I know many teachers and educational assistants who have been and are regularly assaulted by students. I myself have been physically threatened by students, I was scared enough to make a police report about it.
I didn’t say it was about the kids, I said it was about democracy and that is important to my kids’ future in my opinion. It’s clearly not about the kids for the government. I do think though that what’s good for teachers is generally good for kids also. When the Liberals talk about improvements (and they definitely have made some good ones – play based kindergarten and class caps) ask what the evidence is. Is it EQAO? If it is ask about how much the test was changed from year to year and how the results can possibly be compared from one year to the next. I believe our standings internationally have dropped on the last OECD PISA test (I would have to look it up to be sure).
As for the economic collapse, I question much of what happened there – what kind of hit did the rich take? Banks who caused it were bailed out, huge bonuses were given to CEOs (I realize this was in the US and UK but still). I also question how the Liberals got us into this position – unless I see some evidence I’m not going to believe it was all because of 2008 and its aftermath. I would have to do more research and find difficult information to figure that out – I wish a reporter would take that on.
I should have left out the sick day example but really it’s about what has been bargained for in the past. They traded something for the sick days and you would have to go back through collective agreements to see what happened there, the boards must have thought they were getting something worth it there. I’ve heard through the grapevine that they ended up saving a lot of money but I don’t know the details or have evidence for it. I think that this could have been negotiated at the local level, where it is supposed to be negotiated. Of course people don’t want to give that up, it’s human nature, but they would hopefully bargain in good faith and come to a compromise.
Now I’m not pie in the sky about unions either. I’ve seen corruption and greed in unions (in past jobs) and I know they play politics too but I do think in this situation the government is to blame.
Thanks for posting Erin.
I appreciate your perspective on this and was hoping you would write about it. I have been following this issue fairly closely and while I disagree with many of your points and with the teachers unions’ position and tactics on almost all counts, I think its important to hear from both sides.
Based on what I have been reading and hearing from friends and family, I think that the union is badly misreading the public’s sympathy for teachers on these issues, and it is again affecting the credibility and perception of the teaching profession. The economic reality is that the public sector needs to do some belt tightening, as the private sector did and has continued to do over the past few years. The government’s framework for negotiations was completely unacceptable to the public teacher’s unions and they walked away from the table after an hour. That doesn’t demonstrate professionalism or an understanding of the realities the rest of the world faces, nor does it do anything to put students first.
The Catholic teacher’s union settled for what amounts to 1.5% wage and benefit cuts. That amounts to *$120 a month over the 10 months teachers work* on an the average teachers’ salary of $80,000. Teachers have some of the most generous benefits, holiday and pension plans in our province, all funded by the tax payer.
The union’s argument about working conditions rings hollow in light of the facts. No one is negating that teachers work hard, that many of them work long hours, and that they do important work. They are very, very generously compensated for that work, in (for the most part) a safe, highly regulated environment.
Your example about sick days below misses the point. The tax payers pay twice in either scenario. We pay the teachers and the substitute teachers during illness, or we pay the teachers during health and then pay their sick day banking gratuity at the end of their careers. Twenty days represents 1/10 of the entire teaching year, or the equivalent of $8,000 in potential additional benefits. I had a conversation with a teacher recently who took a month off on sick leave for pregnancy issues and seemed to think it was quite justified that she receive full pay for the full month, rather than the unacceptable suggestion that she get reduced pay as a part of her short term disability. She seemed stunned when I told her that for most of the rest of the work world, short term disability is the norm.
The fact of the matter is that when the economic collapse happened in 2008 most companies and many other goverment deptartments froze or reduced salaries, rejigged or cut benefits, and let workers go. It happened in some way for almost all of my friends, and for the vast majority it wasn’t negotiated, it was imposed. It was an economic reality and most people understood the need to do their part. Teachers are now being asked to do what the rest of us already have. And their response is to strike, and try to spin it to be about something it isn’t.
I think there is a real dichotemy at work here. Unionized workers tend to be, for lack of a better word, commodity workers, or those who work in truly dangerous environments and/or those who may not have a voice. Teachers demand to be perceived as professionals. Yet their unionized status, the union’s tactics, and the public’s understanding of their true work environment, compensation structure and power, works against the teacher’s goals to be seen as serious professionals.
I really don’t mean to be harsh. I think teachers do very important work. But I don’t believe this battle is about democracy or “about the kids”. I think the union is playing chicken with the government and the kids are in the middle. While I am concerned with some of the elements the government put into Bill 115 (and yes I have read it and many interpretations of it), it seems that the union is playing into their hand directly by demonstrating that the union has no intention of approaching this situation reasonably or professionally, and so those constraints are needed.
I am sure that this is very stressful for teachers, parents and most importantly the kids, and for that reason I hope that this resolves peacefully and quickly for all involved.