Remember a few months ago when I started the no-yell challenge? Well I was full keeping up with it. I would give myself an 8 out of 10 – which was seriously WAY better than I thought I would be able to manage. Then yesterday happened. And I needed to revisit that post and take the pledge again.
Something happened yesterday. I put Will down for a ‘nap’. Somehow in that 45 minutes where he tore his entire room apart; threw his toys everywhere and basically partied….a cement fairy came and dumped a load off in his ears. The next 5 hours were like nothing we’ve experienced before. He would not listen to a ONE thing I said. Nothing.
He was openly defiant; laughing his maniacal laugh; and driving me to the brink of insanity. Now reading the no-yell challenge again – one thing is constant. I was very tired yesterday. The weekend was a bit crazy. I had an amazing night out Friday – and it was late. We sent the day on Saturday hanging at the paddle club but then I went out again Saturday night. So my own fault. Tired.
BUT. This was different. No amount of time-outs etc worked. It just wound him up more. At one point, I ran down the stairs and out the back door and sat on the porch to try and calm down…but he found me. The next time out I gave him resulted in all of his cars being thrown at the door. I responded to this with a whack on his ass. Thankfully my friend Lindsay came over at 3 and I dissolved into tears and just said ‘get him away from me before I totally lose it.’. We ended up all going for a walk together – but he was still being defiant.
Trust me. I know this is a stage as they all are. BUT, I’m just asking for some advice from you parents who made it through the threes. What are some other tactics for discipline that I can try on out of control days like this? I really felt at a loss yesterday.
*This was him at 5pm. I was saying goodbye to Lindsay and all was way too quiet. And yeah – there he was. Was I afraid it would mess up bedtime – absolutely. Did I give a rats ass? Nope….*
I found that a hug helps a lot. Quiet voice, because the more you yell, the more they yell, too. Soothing voice, they would have to keep quiet just to hear what you say to them. And yes, I knoe you are frustrated and think they don’t deserve a gug in that moment, but our priest said to give what people need not what we think they deserve. The tantrum is because they need something and they can’t describe it, they don’t know what it is. Not thet we know it all the time, no. But it is the best thing to do, it doesn’t require much effort.
I agree to take away privileges, toys, etc, for a time. Donating to charities should be their choice, not a punishment. They should not grow up with the idea that when they are “bad” their things will go to other kids, they have to make this choice cool-headed. Donating comes from within, it has to be agreed and enjoyed by the donor.
Sometimes punishing the kids becomes a war, some people just think: I’m smarter that my kid, I will take this away, punish, ground him. Who suffers? The kids will find some other way to get back to you.
My girls are 10 and 16 and when they start bickering is sign they are tired, so I just separate them saying: get ready to bed, or let’s just watch something together on TV, and I sit between them.
Also, with my oldest, if she doesn’t like the answer I give her, ot some other thing and storms out the room, I call her back, she has to count backwards from 15, appologize and walk away politely. I do not tolerate “attitude” from her and this helps, most of the time she is a great kid. Not a saint, just a kid.
Important is to start early, do not wait till they are teenagers. Kids are sensitive to all that happens in the family, when one of the parents is absent or absent-minded, when there are problems between parents, also everyday life at school influences them, even if they don’t talk about it. They will be more upset because of their classmates saying something about them, than because of low marks!
They also feel when the parents love more one child than the other, sadly, but it happens. But this is another subject…
Hi Marianne
Thanks for commenting in! I seriously bow to you and all the moms out there who tackle new babies with toddlers in tow. You must be exhausted and I know how much harder that is to deal with when you’re exhausted! I so know the defeated/guilt feelings – I think so many of us do. I have to tell you – I’ve used the mommy time-out since Will was a baby. Because I’m single, I couldn’t trade-off, so the crib became my co-parent. I used it a lot. and it saved me on many an occasion. As long as they’re safe, there is NO harm in leaving them and putting headphones on for 10 minutes and doing some deep breathing. Hang in there!!!!
Sara – Although I don’t have advice for you I did want to comment to say THANK YOU for writing this post. I’m a mom of a 2.5 and a 6 month old – and more often than not I’m dealing with the same thing and asking the same questions. Lately with the added bonus of my 6 month old not sleeping – I’m a sleep deprived mommy trying to feel sane. Most days I either feel guilty for yelling, or defeated for giving in cause I’m just too tired.
Thank you for posting and thanks to all who provided comments on discipline. I will definitely adopt some of these reco’s especially the ‘mommy timeout’.
Hi Sara,
I never throw my daughter’s toys or books away, but she knows if she throws something she loses it RIGHT away, and she does not get it back for at least a week or more. This seems to have it’s desired affect, as she is much less likely to throw things now.
This is a really timely issue for me, though, in that we are working through it with our 4 year old, who still has big temper tantrums, with hitting. We’ve been through the more permissive/hug stages, with talking after, and still do this sometimes, too, because as others have noted, she can’t calm down alone. However, now at 4, the talks after go well but the behavior is not stopping. And lately she’s really been testing and pushing her boundaries and manipulating, so we have to take a firmer stance and really focus on helping her learn to handle her anger.
So we’re reading books about characters who get angry and overcome it, and we are reinforcing the “Kelso’s Choices” model with her that she is learning at junior kindergarten. We talk about this a lot, in that a “big” problem is if someone is scaring you or hurting you in any way, and you go to your safe-side adult right away if that is happening. But all other problems are “little” problems. And there are a variety of choices to deal with little problems. (Use your words, Go do something else to distract yourself until you feel calmer, talk it out, take deep breaths, ask someone to please stop, suggest you take turns/make a deal, etc.) We’ve coloured pictures about these choices and we discuss them a lot and they are on our fridge.
If she is in a temper tantrum and she makes one of those choices, she gets praised right away. If she proposes a compromise, we always accept it and praise her for it right away.
And sometimes, the day after she’s been bad, we play with her stuffies and make them behave very badly until she is a frustrated “Mommy,” and then we talk to her about how this makes her feel when they will not listen or use their words for her to help them.
We also withdraw privileges. She is told well in advance, before a temper tantrum, what they will be, and we do the count to three thing as soon as temper behavior starts. I spoke with my friend last night and she uses “brownie” points with her three kids. When they get 10 points, they get a reward/privilege, if they lose points, they lose privileges.
Finally, like most of you, I notice these tantrums are more likely to occur if she is tired, so we try to stick pretty rigidly to a sleep schedule now. But I have also noticed they occur more if we give her too many sweets. (ie-post Halloween she had a heck of a temper.) So we’re going back to once per week for a treat.
Jen, you are not going against the grain with me! We do just what you describe. My husband does it too, offering the hug to our three-year-old, and sometimes amazingly just that offer diffuses the situation considerably. The middle of a tantrum is not a ‘teachable moment’ for manners, sharing, or any other life lesson on civilized behaviour. The kid is too overloaded to take in any information. So, I find it’s best to just ride it out, and then discuss the incident later, if needed. And Jen, I also sometimes feel that others might think my approach is too permissive, that I should just ‘be tougher’ with him and he will get the message. But, I don’t have a responsibility to other adults as to what they think about my parenting. I only have a responsibility to my own kid, and what works best with him (this is the pep talk I give myself). And trying to connect with him, instead of separate him, works best for us.
Sara, that’s great that you were able to turn the getting-dressed struggle around! When Ally fights getting dressed I can get into a bad, rigid frame of mind when I just want to force the issue. When I CAN be lighthearted about it, it works so much better. “These pants won’t stop dancing! These crazy dancing pants. WHOA!!! They are dancing right onto your legs!” (this approach does not work if Ally is in full-blown tantrum; more just if he is being reluctant).
Fabulous advice about needing you the most during this time. I completely agree!
I might be going against the grain here but I have a daughter who, when tired or hungry or overwhelmed can have intense meltdowns. What I have learned over the years is that punishment or anger in the moment doesn’t work, it simply escalates the situation. What Will needs when he is like this is for you to take a deep breath and ignore it for the moment (deal with the specific behaviour when you are both calmer). What I do is go to my daughter and say, “You seem upset. Do you need a hug?” or “Let’s cuddle for a bit because I think we are both feeling frustrated/upset/etc.”
This may sound permissive or wishy washy but I am telling you it works. They feel heard and loved and then you can address the mess. Usually I would say, “Now that we have calmed down and had a good cuddle let’s talk about this mess/behaviour/etc.” And we plan a solution together and discuss a “if this happens again” consequence. We are both calm.
Sometimes she is too far gone and refuses the cuddle so I say, “Spend some time in your room and let me know when you are ready for a hug.”
I am telling you, you will spend far less time in meltdown mode if you diffuse it in the first place. Just my 2 cents.
Guys – your comments are truly awesome. This morning…I put them into action – major freak out at getting changed – kicking, yelling etc. So I was about to lose it when your advice hit me. I picked up his clothes and said ‘i’ll be downstairs when you’re ready to talk nicely to mom and get dressed.’ At first he wasn’t happy but 10 minutes later he was dressed and eating breakfast! Awesome!
Sara, I do pretty much what DesiValentine described. I read something once about tantrums, that basically when the children are at their worst and acting their absolutely most unlovable, is (unfortunately) when they need your support the most. Time-outs don’t seem to work for Ally, because truly what he wants is help to calm down.
If Ally is kicking and thrashing at me and throwing things, I hold him. He doesn’t like it, of course. I tell him (as calmly as I can) “You may not hit me. You may not throw things. I will let you down when you can stop hitting and throwing.” Then I put him down. If he is just wailing around (but not hitting or throwing) I let him do that. I stay relatively near but I busy myself with something else. I tell him, “You are having a tough time right now. I will be here to help you.” I temporarily take away things that he is throwing as a matter of safety, but not as a punishment. I don’t like to take away things he cherishes. That seems to me to break a trust (imagine if someone did that to you after you didn’t comport yourself well?)
I also remind myself of this during tantrums: they are unpleasant to listen to, and loud, but they are usually NECESSARY and GOOD as a way of expressing emotion and letting off steam. It’s not a sign of bad parenting, or a bad kid. It’s just what it is: developmental immaturity! When I frame it in that way, I’m more likely to find patience to just wait it out.
p.s. lest I sound like some sort of ever-patient saint, there are PLENTY of times when I don’t follow my own advice. But I’m never happy with the way those situations end up when I get all frantic and dismissive.
My son does this when he’s way overtired or in the middle of a major growth spurt. As long as he’s safe, I tell him I’m ready when he is and to come and find me when he’s done. If he’s not safe – if he’s throwing stuff, crashing around like a maniac – then I sit and hold him with his back against my front until he’s calm enough to be on his own for a little while.
My daughter did this when she was three, and we got through it. So much intellectual growth happens at this stage, it’s got to be overwhelming. Hang in there! Your sweet little man will be back soon 🙂
Also? I’d start talking away things he likes… like a movie or a book, with warnings in advance, but with follow through. He’ll likely HATE it, but he might get with the programme pretty fast after that… maybe. *squeezes you*
Oh, dude. I think this is just a bit of a waiting game – when they dig their heels in, there’s no reasoning with them. I’ve uttered, “When you’re ready to listen, we’ll talk some more…” and just walk away.
Of course, when I say “walk” I mean “stomp away wildly, audibly praying for Jesus to please help me deal with this child because I have no freaking ideas left and I just might kill someone…” You know – the usual.
As Julie said: deep breaths. And a wee glass of wine never hurt anyone… (Hang in there, sistah – this too shall pass. One day, he’ll just be his sweet, perfect little dude self, and you’ll be all, “Whoa! When did this kid get back?!” And all will be well again. Until the next time. Heh.)
This is a very trying age! I had mentioned on twitter that this is a great time to start introducing good choices vs bad choices. What this means is you are eliminating the “time-out” so to speak (I find they often don’t work and can lead to more anger) and replacing it with a choice. If they are closer to 2 the language may need to be modified for a 2 year old. Just simplify it. 2.5-3 years should have no problem.
An example of this would be:
He’s losing it throwing toys and yelling at you. You would calmly (easier said than done I know) say something like” wow, that’s too bad that you’ve decided to treat Mommy like that, that makes me feel sad so, I don’t think I’d like to play with you right now. You can go somewhere else and be on your own for a little while. When you’re ready to be kind and make good choices you’re welcome to come hang out with me again. And you can leave your cars here too. We don’t treat our toys like that, maybe later if you are making good choices and being kind we can play with them again.” In the case of the toys, a garbage bag totally works too! You just have to make sure they never get them back, or you may see them not caring because they know eventually they toys will return.
The great thing about making the choices on their own, is that they are responsible for their actions 100% of the time. You never want them to leave or be away from you, but if they make the choice to behave a certain way, they’ve made the choice to be on their own. Not in a time out, just time on their own away from you. That’s the punishment, not being allowed to hangout with you. They can go wander around, but they are not allowed to be with you until they have had a few mins to think about their “bad choices” and have decided to change their attitude. Same goes with the toys, you want your toys…you treat them well. It’s their choice if they lose them because they have decided to. This technique is great because it makes them stop and think before they do things they know they shouldn’t do. Saying things like “I’m really proud of you for making that choice” when you know they could have gone the other way, will make them proud of themselves.
Thanks Julie – and you’re right – he was so tired too. In retrospect – maybe I should have put him in the car and driven until he fell asleep. I do love the throwing things out – I will for sure use this. And yes – I find the ‘mom time-outs’ actually work – he tends to calm down a bit because he’s worried about me….and I for SURE need it.
i’m not sure you could do anything else. i know, NOT what you wanted to hear.
you gave yourself a timeout which more moms need to do and that was a good idea. i have had success with stopping throwing things. they throw it, i throw it away (or into a big black garbage bag for effect) i warned them first that anything thrown in the house is destined for goodwill or the garbage since they obviously don’t care about it.
that nap on the couch tells me that he couldn’t control himself either. i’ve noticed big differences with my girls when they do and don’t get enough sleep. deep breaths and a glass o’red.